Curse

moriz · Feb 01, 2009, 04:58 PM // 16:58

i think some of you are taking a relatively simple build (cryway with a tank) and trying to make it sound like some ridiculously complex strategy to be planned out hours ahead or something.

without knowing how cryway is played, here's how i would build and play the build:

1-2 shadow form tanks
2 monks of whatever build, one with fall back preferred
rest necro/mes or mes cryers, with echo, arcane echo, and cry of pain

here's how to play it:
-shadow form tank puts up uberdefense and move forward, and grabs aggro.
-cryers put up echos
-tank uses token mesmer hex
-fall back monk uses fall back
-cryers run forward and jam down all three copies of cry. mob insta-explodes.
-monks mop up any residual damage

sounds pretty simple to me. if your builds are any more complex than this, i'd say it's simply inefficient. there's also the possibility that i'm not taking something into account, but that can be remedied very easily.

Akolo · Feb 01, 2009, 05:09 PM // 17:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

i think some of you are taking a relatively simple build (cryway with a tank) and trying to make it sound like some ridiculously complex strategy to be planned out hours ahead or something.

without knowing how cryway is played, here's how i would build and play the build:

1-2 shadow form tanks
2 monks of whatever build, one with fall back preferred
rest necro/mes or mes cryers, with echo, arcane echo, and cry of pain

here's how to play it:
-shadow form tank puts up uberdefense and move forward, and grabs aggro.
-cryers put up echos
-tank uses token mesmer hex
-fall back monk uses fall back
-cryers run forward and jam down all three copies of cry. mob insta-explodes.
-monks mop up any residual damage

sounds pretty simple to me. if your builds are any more complex than this, i'd say it's simply inefficient. there's also the possibility that i'm not taking something into account, but that can be remedied very easily.

k now try making pugs do that and tell us how it went.

moriz · Feb 01, 2009, 05:24 PM // 17:24

who said this build is for pugs? it's for an organized group of people, and trying to make it work in a pug is just stupid.

Tyla · Feb 01, 2009, 05:31 PM // 17:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Athrun Feya

But we can achieve the same results with them, as proven in The Deep. Surely this means they are extremely comparible. Therefore, as shown previously, CoP is replacable.

I would argue that when facing huge mobs (which are pretty common in any elite area) reliable AoE damage is, by any standard, superior compared to somewhat limited AoE from buffed physicals. Therefore caster based teams happen to be more suitable for places like DoA and The Deep. Urgoz is about equal with respect to record using both type of team and FoW even moreso because of smaller enemy mobs.

Well as long as the Earth Shaker and the other melee are properly positioned, you can efficiently place your AoE, althogh in areas which have a messy spawn and agro management around your midline, backline and ofcourse your frontlie it could be a problem.

Quote:

We heard you got rejected by TAM and thought you could do with some experience to build your opinions on as far as cryway is concerned.

Not rejected, but quit - major refurbishmnt of my room meant I had to take time off (old laptop incapable of playing Guild Wars) but ended up quitting. I can play on my new laptop, but the keyboard is so f*cking tiny (netbook yay). I probably won't join a guild anymore because I don't play as much anymore anyway, but thanks for asking I guess.

Akolo · Feb 01, 2009, 05:34 PM // 17:34

the whole point that others were making against cop was that appearantly they didnt want anyone to be able to steamroll an elite area with ease.
Now, as i know for a fact that almost all pug teams fail when trying out cryway, that argument seems to break.
So if only (some) guilds can manage cryway, and most pugs cant, whats the problem?
Isn't this showing that somewhat skill and organization is involved, however easy YOU may find it?

Horus · Feb 01, 2009, 06:07 PM // 18:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akolo

the whole point that others were making against cop was that appearantly they didnt want anyone to be able to steamroll an elite area with ease.
Now, as i know for a fact that almost all pug teams fail when trying out cryway, that argument seems to break.
So if only (some) guilds can manage cryway, and most pugs cant, whats the problem?
Isn't this showing that somewhat skill and organization is involved, however easy YOU may find it?

honestly? PUGs only dont manage it as they dont have good perma tank. Srsly tell me what more than echo+arcane echo + CoP + snare does it take to clear areas? :/ maybe i forgot to mention Consets...

moriz · Feb 01, 2009, 06:10 PM // 18:10

there's really very little skill and organization involved. all it requires is basic GW101 and some common sense. if we judge everything on what the "average" gw player can do, we might as well dumb the game down into pokemon difficulty.

as such, we have to judge everything on a slightly higher standard. according to that standard, cryway is indeed a very powerful (or even overpowered) build, and should be adjusted somewhat.

Unreal Havoc · Feb 01, 2009, 06:12 PM // 18:12

You only have to look at VSF Cryway to see the big difference between PuG vs Guild Cryway teams considering a good amount of VSF Cryway PuGs fail (and not as often because of the Perma as most might think). Try organising a proper Cry of Pain spike with a PuG, seriously, and I mean a proper one not a "Hey I'll cast 5 seconds after everyone else does" spike.

kostolomac · Feb 01, 2009, 06:39 PM // 18:39

Quote:

On the other hand, I think new builds will emerge when this one is nerfed.
Should A-net also nerf those builds? And when does that stop, what are the criteria?

By my standards no , but it seems that the general rule is that if a pug can do an elite area using some build in less that a days time the build is overpowered.

My criteria is pretty low , as long as the players watch aggro and their positions , don't use stupid builds and work together they should be able to do any area in respectable time frame.

Nerfing consets will make a greater effect than nerfing one team build.

Improvavel · Feb 01, 2009, 06:44 PM // 18:44

First everyone and their mothers could do, while sleeping.

Then its only organized groups.

PuG groups fail cause they don't have good shadow tanks - which is impossible because a shadow tank as to manage exactly 3 skills.

Then it cant be judged on the standard of the average population...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I know what people want and what they don't want - they want to balance the PLAYERS not the GAME.

They want to create a requirement for Elite areas - be in one of the few guilds that can do it or then you cant.

I propose the requirement to access the elite areas are - Urgoz and Deep - need to control the town. No more scrolls and taxi - you aren't in the alliance you can't.

DoA - Win the GvG monthly tournament.

Here demanding requirements. And you need to be good at GvG which was the way the game was designed.

And if you cant get in there is because you are a noob.

Akolo · Feb 01, 2009, 07:43 PM // 19:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by guardian of dragon temple

honestly? PUGs only dont manage it as they dont have good perma tank. Srsly tell me what more than echo+arcane echo + CoP + snare does it take to clear areas? :/ maybe i forgot to mention Consets...

like i said your saying how easy YOU think it is, spend 1-2 days joining pug teams for elite areas and see how good they are

Lourens · Feb 01, 2009, 08:27 PM // 20:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akolo

like i said your saying how easy YOU think it is, spend 1-2 days joining pug teams for elite areas and see how good they are

thats what i tried to say to
Yeah its all about crowd control your tank must get the enemies together then you hex them and use cry it requires thinking .. you need some skill to use CoP in a good way especially in hardmode where enemies will scatter
and you need team speak to get of a 1,2,3 spike on the AI

CoP isnt overpowered there are dosens of those AoE spells that can do the same

Tyla · Feb 01, 2009, 11:13 PM // 23:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lourens

CoP isnt overpowered there are dosens of those AoE spells that can do the same

Those "dozens of AoE spells" are incredibly uncomparable to CoP in terms of versatility and strength.

Melandrus Torment · Feb 02, 2009, 01:01 AM // 01:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Those "dozens of AoE spells" are incredibly uncomparable to CoP in terms of versatility and strength.

That doesn't mean that in the hands of competent players Cry of Pain would not just be replaced by a different skill instead. I mean good teams were killing Voltaic Spear Farming with Nukers before they moved onto Cry of Pain spiking and still pulling in good times, so nerfing Cry of Pain won't make much difference, people will just move onto another way of finishing a farm. At least using Cry of Pain takes good co-ordination to use effectively compared to Ursan, while allowing more proffessions to participate freely, and in my opinion Ray of Judgment is a far more powerful spell.

On one hand I can see what you are arguing for, and to some degree I can agree with it, but on the other hand it's PvE so there's no point in even trying to bring skill into the equasion when PvE takes very little skill, when compared to PvP, in the first place, only experience of the area you're venturing into and good forward preparation.

PvE is meant to be fun, instead of trying to dictate how everyone else should have fun, just try and find your own way to have fun. If you want to play a way that makes you more skillfull at PvE, do so. No one really cares how good you are or are not at PvE, quite simply because it's PvE.

draxynnic · Feb 02, 2009, 01:45 AM // 01:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by kostolomac

CoP's only imbalance is that it can hit 10+ foes , limiting the number of affected foes would balance the skill a bit. Outside of farming builds the only occasion CoP is actually powerful is with AP.

There are plenty of skills that can hit ten or more opponents if they're balled up.

What really makes CoP imbalanced is that it makes it possible for 5 players to deal a thousand points of armour-ignoring area-of-effect damage in about a second, with some leadup. If Assassin's Promise is being used, this can be repeated within a couple of seconds if needed.

Personally, I would consider limiting the number of targets it can hit to be a fairly weak nerf - it would just encourage AP a bit more so it can be done again. It's the 'one-second-coordinated-spike' aspect that truly makes it dangerous - any nerf should be aimed at this.

(For the record, I'd certainly agree that it's less of a problem than Ursan, if for no other reason than because the grind requirement is lower.)

Hanging Man · Feb 02, 2009, 02:54 AM // 02:54

ok my mesmer is finally loving CoP. Finally mesmers have a staple in pve. Now don't say mesmers were used in pve before, they were, but rarely from personal experience. Before Cop, getting in a group was bout as rare as a q7 Eternal Blade. Now with the addition of Cop, my mesmer can finally get into a group.

And it isn't like Cop is the staple for all DoA builds. if you go there people still trio, 600 smite, imbagon, trappers even.

I don't have a monk, so I dont care bout Roj.

But don't complain about Cop. It is a fine skill, finally giving mesmers their 15 mins of fame. All proffesions have had them, Wars and their SY. Monks and this new Roj. necs and discordway. Para imbagons, and dont even get me started on perma sins, jesus.

/not signed on Cop
/dont care enuff for Roj

Menicus · Feb 02, 2009, 03:34 AM // 03:34

I agree with both of the skill changes. Maybe not the exact ones that the topic creater, came up with, but both of them definitely need nerfed. I'm not saying make them utterly useless, but do something like take away some of the damage, or limit its use in other ways. Those groups are way too easy to pull off. The only person that really needs to be competant in what they do is the perma sin that has to pull them all together while keeping himself alive. While I can't vouch for The Deep as I've never completed it, Urgoz's Warren is far too easy with a cryer group than it should be.

Ray of Judgement should definitely cause AoE scatter. I've got no idea why it doesn't. It does a substantial amount of damage and causes burning, so NPCs should naturally want to get away from it. I agree on this one as well.

Even though both of these skills are overpowered and should be at least partially nerfed, it won't do anything to the use of gimmick builds in elite areas. They'll still be overrun with them. All these elite areas have ever done, all Hard Mode in general has ever done, is encourage the use of more gimmicky, easy to use builds. Why? Because there's a shortage of the one component that you need to make other builds work. Skill. Even if the person has skill there's very much doubt that they'd use an inefficient, slow, difficult build when a gimmicky alternative will give you more reward with less risk.

xDusT II · Feb 02, 2009, 03:54 AM // 03:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by kostolomac

I heard blowing things out of proportion is a a very good argument.

The suggestion was a variable, the (mis)use of the argument was the point I was trying to make.

-------------------------------

While I don't really give two shits about the issue at hand, a game needs areas that give a sense of achievement for completion. This means that certain areas should be sufficiently difficult and require some semblance of thought to complete in order to reward players with a feeling of accomplishment, rather than just being a means to farm items or titles. In this way, the ability for anyone to complete elite zones does affect everyone else by demeaning the existing sense of accomplishment achieved through overcoming the difficult zones.

A good PvE multiplayer game should allow players some level of non-competitive bragging rights because it keeps people interested and playing. Right now the PvE 'meta' for accomplishment has changed from simply being able to complete a zone to battery farming elite missions for titles. This is not the formula GW is based upon and is closer to grind then actual gameplay.

kostolomac · Feb 02, 2009, 05:39 AM // 05:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by xDusT II

While I don't really give two shits about the issue at hand, a game needs areas that give a sense of achievement for completion. This means that certain areas should be sufficiently difficult and require some semblance of thought to complete in order to reward players with a feeling of accomplishment, rather than just being a means to farm items or titles. In this way, the ability for anyone to complete elite zones does affect everyone else by demeaning the existing sense of accomplishment achieved through overcoming the difficult zones.

Those areas are instanced and you can play them however you wanted , I herowayed city with a pug (spirit spammer rit and derv that is first time in doa) and don't give a f*ck how someone else completed it and still enjoyed it.
People farm these areas because you need tormented weapons in HoM(Anet kinda encourages grind) and because there is no new content.

Quote:

A good PvE multiplayer game should allow players some level of non-competitive bragging rights because it keeps people interested and playing. Right now the PvE 'meta' for accomplishment has changed from simply being able to complete a zone to battery farming elite missions for titles. This is not the formula GW is based upon and is closer to grind then actual gameplay.

Again , that's because of lack of new content the goals have changed. Instead of winning and moving on to the next area like in the beginning when everything was new, we are left to play the same areas over and over, it's only logical that farming builds will be created.

Lourens · Feb 02, 2009, 07:38 AM // 07:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanging Man

ok my mesmer is finally loving CoP. Finally mesmers have a staple in pve. Now don't say mesmers were used in pve before, they were, but rarely from personal experience. Before Cop, getting in a group was bout as rare as a q7 Eternal Blade. Now with the addition of Cop, my mesmer can finally get into a group.

And it isn't like Cop is the staple for all DoA builds. if you go there people still trio, 600 smite, imbagon, trappers even.

I don't have a monk, so I dont care bout Roj.

But don't complain about Cop. It is a fine skill, finally giving mesmers their 15 mins of fame. All proffesions have had them, Wars and their SY. Monks and this new Roj. necs and discordway. Para imbagons, and dont even get me started on perma sins, jesus.

/not signed on Cop
/dont care enuff for Roj

[Energy surge][Shatter Hex][Mistrust][Clumsiness][Wandering Eye][cry of frustration][tease][epidemic] So here are the non pve AoE mesmer skills, if CoP gets nerfed go QQ elsewhere thanks